Fade to Black Episode 702 - Richard Dolan: False Flags

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Fade to Black: Episode 702 - Richard Dolan - False Flags

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Segment 1

Jimmy: All right, welcome back, Fade to Black on the GameChanger network and KJCR, the planet! I'm your host Jimmy Church. Tonight Richards *bleeping* Dolan. That's right! He's among the world's leading UFO historians. He has written many classics for the field, including UFOs and the National Security State; A.D. After Disclosure and UFOs for the 21st Century Mind as well, as ongoing booklets for his Richard Dolan lecture series. He has lectured all around the world. He appeared widely on television, including of course Ancient Aliens, and with yours truly on Hangar 1. Currently, he is the writer, host of the series: False Flags, which appears on Gaia TV. He is also writing a book on the same subject! We'll ask about that! And he also hosts two radio shows, of course the Richard Dolan Show on KGRA, and the Effed Files, and I think he's... I'm going to have to ask him if he's on hiatus with that. And of course, he's the publisher of Richard Dolan Press, which features the work of many leading thinkers, and exploring alternative realities in our world today. His website is RichardDolanPress.com, and I would like to welcome back, to Fade to Black - fellow fadernout - Richard *bleeping* Dolan! Richard, good evening!

Richard: Hi Jimmy! Thanks for having me on!

Jimmy: How are you, man?

Richard: I'm doing just great, very well these days.

Jimmy: Man, your radio pipes, are excelling.

Richard: Really?

Jimmy: Yeah dude, I'm intimidated. Wow, well done!

Richard: Thank you!

Jimmy: All right...

Richard: Not in your league, as far as radio goes, but I do my best.

Jimmy: Oh, you're doing just fine. Hey look, let's just keep the tradition going. Right now, what was the last song that you listened today?

Richard: Good one for you... Fatboy Slim - Praise You.

Jimmy: Know what... I see...

Richard: You have to let me... I have to follow up with that...

Jimmy: Was it in the shower?

Richard: The only reason, that I heard that song last... I mean, I'm a fan of Fatboy Slim, so that's not big surprise maybe, but... It was a given to me by my fiancé Tracy, who knew that you're going to ask me this question. And furthermore: knowing that would have been the last song, I would have had to tell you honestly, was a song that I myself sang, which was the theme song to the Mary Tyler Moore Show, and to completion. Word-for-word, which happily I can say: I remembered. So, I get to say: Fatboy Slim and Praise You a little more on the higher on the cool scale, than the Mary Tyler Moore theme song. But hey! Everyone loves a Mary Tyler Moore theme song.

Jimmy: You could have said: you sung the Pixies version of the Mary Tyler Moore theme song.

Richard: Yeah, but I didn't, actually. Thank you...

Jimmy: Oh man! Alright, okay... Now I'm very impressed, and the question is... And then we'll move. Did you dance to Fatboy Slim?

Richard: Not on this particular occasion.

Jimmy: Okay, all right. Okay, I just wanted the visual. Okay, now we need to put our serious faces on. All right, I got tears of my eyes man, that was funny, that was good. Crazy news day today, Richard. And I know, that a lot of the audience right now, is expecting me to go in one direction, and possibly another direction, they're chomping at the bit. We'll do that, at the top of the hour. The crazy news today... When we're dealing with false flags, and your favourite subject at the moment. Do you feel like there's a false flag in our future with North Korea?

Richard: A short answer is yes; the long answer is yes.

Jimmy: I know, right?

Richard: So, what's happening with North Korea, is that... You know, when people are hearing news about North Korea - and actually I've been out of the news pretty much most of the day, I've been working on other projects that don't involve news, but I've been following North Korea for sure -, and what you can really see happening, is that the United States is itching for regime change. And they're itching for North Korea in Iran. They would love to regime change Russia, but that's really not going to happen in the immediate future. But they would love that! But they can foresee... These are crazy people running US policy. There no more saner now, than they were a couple of years ago, under Obama or under Bush. They're the same level of crazy, maybe even higher level of crazy in some ways. They believe, that they're going to regime change North Korea, and they're following all of the types of pretext, that the United States has done, since forever. So, this nothing new. The whole concept of kind of a fake revolution, you create pretexts for switching out governments you don't like... And what I think what they'll do, is they're going to convince the American public - they're already convincing the American public -, that North Korea really will have a nuke, and they're going to use it to hit California, or the United States. Not going to happen! Just mark my words, I'm telling you, that will not happen because they actually don't have that capability. This has been hyped so incredibly out of proportion, that the nation... It has among many other things. We've lost our sanity now over North Korea, we lost our sanity over Russia. Continue to lose it over that... Now losing it over North Korea, then lose it over Iran as well. North Korea is not going to launch nukes at all! Ever against the United States, unless they are deeply provoked to do so, and what Americans don't realize... Of course, do I even need to say that, that I'm not here to defend the regime of North Korea? But the United States has been constantly, incessantly provoking the North Koreans, by having military exercises right at their border! And they do this all the time, the North Koreans are obsessed about it. And if the US really wants to ratchet things down, they would change their behaviour, in North-east Asia. But they can't do it, they won't ever do it... And it's kind of ridiculous frankly, that President Trump is expecting China somehow to participate in this. Can you imagine? If China allows North Korea to go through a regime change, now the US troops go right up to the Chinese border.

Jimmy: Right!

Richard: So, the Chinese aren't stupid. They're not going to just let that sort of thing happen. And it seems like, no one in the White House is aware of this basic fact. I mean they really, they are ideologues... And it's not unique to the Trump White House by the way. They were every bit as much ideologically driven under the Obama White House, and they would have been every bit as ideological driven under a Hillary Clinton White House. But it happens to be Trump, and this is just furthermore further proof, as the French would say: "La plus ça change, la plus c'est la même chose" is that bad, my French. The more things change, the more they stay the same. And there's no difference in US policy with president Trump, as it was from Obama, it's exactly the same. The same war mongering and misrepresentation of other country. US did it to Libya, when they destroyed that nation under Obama, and now Trump is probably hoping he can destroy North Korea.

Jimmy: The entire false narrative of WMD's. It's like this crazy deja vu flashback. And we're having that right now, with the announcement of miniaturization of nuclear warheads, that cannot be put on the tips of missiles.

Richard: I'm very glad you're mentioning this! You know, back in 2003, the United States has several unforgivable crimes, that have been committed during our lifetime. And maybe the day will come, when Americans collectively start to understand this. Alright, so one of those unforgivable crimes was Iraq in 2003. When the United States government at that time, under George W. Bush, with people like Donald Rumsfeld, and Condoleezza Rice and Dick Cheney, lied! Knowingly lied... About these so-called weapons of mass destruction, the WMD's. Condoleezza Rice, and I think it was Cheney or Rumsfeld... Used the imagery of a nuclear mushroom cloud, over the United States. And that's how we would find out that Saddam had nukes, is that there would be a mushroom cloud. Yeah, good one... What they ended up doing was terrifying the American public, and getting them to believe, that this was in fact the case, when everyone - who I knew at the time - know that there were no weapons of mass destruction. And I knew, because I followed the subject back in 2003. I watched Colin Powell lied to the world, at the United Nations in February 2003, about this whole thing. And this is... and the result of course, is the destruction of an entire nation. Iraq was destroyed, and it is destroyed to this day. Iraq is a wreck. The United States under Obama - because this is a bipartisan blood lust - did it to Libya! And man, did they do it to Libya... And again, Americans don't really understand what they, as a nation have done. To - what was then the wealthiest, most prosperous nation in Africa - a nation, that had free health care, that had free housing for the homeless, where women could wear what they want. Where women and men could easily go to universities, and they did. Where there was more local democracy, than existed in United States. They had a strong man at the top, but he ran that country, so that everyone was prosperous. And it just happened to be outside of the IMF dominated Western US banking system. And if you doubt this, read the WikiLeaks emails, in which Hillary Clinton's emails have the right there! There was a whole conversation about Sarkozy of France, and the French desire to get the Libyan gold. As one of the key motivations... Of course, the United States had the same desire, power controlling the oil and the gold, and getting Libya under Western control. And they just wrecked it, under false pretences.

Jimmy: You know, I'll tell you the really strange thing, that most people don't really realize about Libya. They were asked, to give up their nuclear ambitions, and they put everything on a boat, and ship it out a Libya.

Richard: And go back to North Korea now, all right? So, the Libyans... I guarantee you, everyone who's got a brain in their head - looking at this geopolitically - realizes: ah, if Libya had kept developing nukes, this probably would not have happened, and they're probably right. North Korea... They may be immoral, they may be bloody-minded, but they're not that stupid, like people like to portray them. All right, so they understand full well, the nukes are the only thing, that is keeping that regime in power. And I agree that it is a shame, and unfortunate, and a crime, that that regime is in power, but you know... Americans like to convince themselves, if they have this ability to switch out every bad government in the world. With they've got that ability, maybe they should do something about their own. And I'm not talking about Trump, I'm talking about the entire system.

Jimmy: That's right.

Richard: At a place that exists for an oligarchy.

Jimmy: Well, when people bring up false flags, and they want to bring up something like... You know, Sandy Hook - which I don't agree with by the way -, but that know, when we are talking about a true, country on country false-flag, this is going to play out just like it did in 2003. It's the same playbook Richard, it is the exact same setup. And we're watching a play out, unfairly...

Richard: You can create a kind of typology of it, in fact I've been working on this from my own book, on false flags. And I actually included a number of these types of ideas for the show, that I wrote. And they've hosted for Gaia TV, which is called False Flags. I'm fact if I may, I would encourage people: if they are interested in checking that series out... It is a unique series, this I can say very confidently, there's nothing like this has been done anywhere! I spent the time really, to research the history of false flags, as they developed as a phenomenon. False flags aren't ancient, but they do go back at least a good century, and there's a couple of older ones, but they're actually specifically modern. This is one of the main things, I like to about them.

Jimmy: What's the format of the show? You have guests, or is it you?

Richard: This is me, do my thing.

Jimmy: Right, right.

Richard: This is another unique thing about Gaia. I'm not aware of anyone else doing this - and I'm not taking away from what anyone else does - but I didn't want to do it kind of sit-down format, interview show. I had a concept in my mind, I had an arc, I had a vision of what I wanted to create, and I wrote it out, I scripted it out, and I did it in front of the camera. Now if I were ever to continue anything with Gaia in the future, I might want to interview type of a format, because I can tell you writing it out is a lot of work!

Jimmy: That's a lot of work man, yeah.

Richard: It was good for me though, because it actually also jump-started... Really made me move farther along in my book on false flags. Which I've been wanting to write, for the longest time. So, I've got a couple of hundred pages now written, and I'm happy about that. But in terms of the false flags... if someone is interested in checking it out on Gaia, I would encourage them actually. They could help me out, if they wanted to join Gaia, I would say do it through the link on my website, I would be very grateful for that. It is good for me, and it helps me promote myself in the network. You just go to my website at RichardDolanPress.com, there's a link right at the very top there, for the Gaia show, click it, and if you want to sign up, go for it.

Jimmy: You know, I'm going to give this up in Twitter right, for you. The reason why... I don't like fear porn, I don't. But the one thing, that I've tried to make everybody aware of, because I'm so interested in this, and the more that I see days, turn into weeks, and time passes, the more that it is true. Which is there is an agenda that is going on, we have the dialogue, that is presented to us, and the dogma, from mass media. Which is completely untrue! And the agenda of the world, is right in front of you. If you don't trust my words, just observe what is going on in front of you right now, and it is playing out right now, with North Korea.

Richard: I agree with you.

Jimmy: And it scares the crap out of me Richard.

Richard: It's not about doing fear porn, you know? I mean... I guess I know what fear porn means, it's scaring people in a sense to excite them, in a way and to get them come back, like clickbait type stuff. I'm not interested in that, at the least. It's interesting, that I'm doing the show in Gaia. Anyone who's watched Gaia, or follows, those guys... I mean they started out, like basically doing yoga... They're into consciousness, and transformation. And suddenly, they bring on Richard Dolan, and he's talking about false flags for God's sake. So, they've had to make a little bit of an adjustments, in having me on. And I think they've done an admirable job, if I may say. Bringing me, and allowing me to do what I like to do, and it's not in frightening people. I am never about that! But what I am about, is... Look, if there are bad things happening around you, and there always are, alright? We can do one, of two things: we can pretend that they don't exist, and we can create our circle of light, and protect ourselves, and visualize positive change. Which I don't think it's going to be very effective, to be honest with you. What I think it's going to be a little bit more effective, is recognizing what the problem is, and then dealing with it. I liken it to having this wonderful dream: you're on the beach drinking margaritas, someone's rubbing your feet. It's a great dream, but meanwhile your house is burning down. So, what's the better solution, keep the dreaming, or wake up and deal with the fire?

Jimmy: Throw your margarita on the fire!

Richard: So, I want to... doing the research that I do, whether it's with UFOs or false flags. I want to be about helping people wake up, and let it letting them realize, that by waking up, you're actually gaining power, your gaining strength. Because it's only through truth, that we're actually going to be able to deal with the problems around us. And it's not always easy. I remember a statement from the late John Mack. I'll never forget this, it was in one of his books. He said: look, gaining higher awareness basically means stripping illusions away from us, and none of us can do that, without a certain amount of pain. Because we're all born into illusions, everyone. Illusions about our world, illusions about ourselves, illusions about our reality, and it's only by through painful process of recognizing those illusions, that we engage in personal growth! But there's a little bit of pain that goes along with that, but then the end result is that we grow, and we become stronger. And we become more able to do good in the world, because we're more knowledgeable, and we're not filling our head with fantasies. But we're filling our head with the truth! That's the only way, to make ourselves better, it is the only way to make our world better.

Jimmy: The concept that I'm trying to avoid, is this: I don't want to be labelled as some "new conscious 1970's pyramid power, positive is the only way of life thing". Because that is not the real world. You know, I don't want to be labelled as that.

Richard: Also, not healthy. It's unhealthy.

Jimmy: It is, it is completely, but I try to live that way, that's the other problem, right?

Richard: I mean in a way, I get it, because I said this many times, I'm very proud to say this. When I was 15 years old, I bought my very first book by Wayne Dyer: Your Erroneous Zones. I was 15 years old, you know. I mean it's classic pop psychology, anyone who knows Wayne Dyer - who's no longer with us -, but I gladly tell anyone, that book had a very positive influence on my life, and still does! I learned a very important lesson from that book, which is maybe related to what you just said. And the idea is... He said look over your shoulder, that's your death. You're going to die one day. He said: this is your life right now, and you have a choice. You can live your life, in a healthy and positive way. Or you can live it in an unhealthy, un-positive or a negative way. And they said, the first thing you need to do, is to take responsibility for your slots, which means, don't go blame your mom and your dad, for how lousy things are for you. That's giving away your power, and your responsibilities. As you right now have the ability, it is within you, to make a decision. What kind of person am I going to be? And it had a huge influence on me. And so... I really believe strongly, in telling myself healthy positive things! But that's a little different, then the kinds of manifestation affirmations and I think some people like to do. Because my take on this: - and I'll make some friends and enemies by saying this -, but I think that when people say: I want to manifest such and such a thing, I don't think they know, what they're talking about at all. I think that the only way, you're going to manifest anything, is by planning it, and doing it. That's how you manifest. So, you create that vision in your mind, yes you do. But you it's not going to happen by itself...

Jimmy: Still have to work.

Richard: By easy thinking. That's right, you know this! You've you went through the whole process, of creating your show!

Jimmy: Yes.

Richard: And you know every bit, of how much hard work that was. Planning, and obstacles, and disappointments, and then overcoming all those obstacles, I mean, it never stops. And it's the same, with the projects, that I've been doing. So, it only happens through... You tell yourself: Where do I want to be in five years? What do I want to be doing? What do I want to do in one year? Okay, good! That's what I want to do, how am I going to get there? And we have to think it through. So, on that sense, I believe in manifesting, sure. But it's only through creating a vision, planning it out, and then working. So, I feel at the New Age philosophy, that some people have, has been very harmful and destructive. Not simply to society at large, because it really is a very improper, imprecise thinking, it's a lose thinking. But it's also I think harmful mentally, to a lot of the people engage in it.

Jimmy: Yeah, you have to implement, you have to implement, you can't just... You know, you can change your own reality with your mind, and you just close your eyes and click your heels three times, and meditate every day.

Richard: We do change our reality with our minds, but only in conjunction with our actions.

Jimmy: Right!

Richard: You've got to think it, then you got to do it, that's the other part.

Jimmy: I remember... When we come back, after the break, I want to talk about Uniwiki, our new little project here, I want to introduce this to everybody. And so, you get the honour, of you know being on the show, that we do this. This is a big, worldwide announcement, we're going to do that after the break. But, going back to 1991-1992, When I was going through this transformation. I mean really, really wanting to do things, and change my reality, and was working really hard on my mind. And then meanwhile, LA is burning down, we've got riots, we've got crack being sold outside of my front door. I got bodies in the street, literally! I mean literally, craziness of this madness evil world! And I was like: Man, I can want this all that my desire, but any changing what's going on out there on the streets, the reality is out there. And that's where it's harmful. You know, what I mean? That's where it's self-destructive. You actually have to, physically go out, and make a difference. And not only for yourself, but for the world...

Richard: I'll have a follow-up on that, but I know you want to go to breaks.

Jimmy: Yeah, we got to do that right. Now, let's go ahead and do that. Our guest tonight, is the one and only Richard *bleeping* Dolan. I will never say, what I really want to say. Everything's on the table. when we come back, we're going to talk about Uniwiki, our new project! I'm going to click tweet here in just a second! I'm your host, Jimmy Church! My guest tonight is Richard Dolan, on the GameChanger Network, in KGRA, the Planet, we'll be right back!

Segment 2

Jimmy: All right, welcome back, Fade to Black. I'm your host Jimmy Church. Our guest tonight Richard *bleeping* Dolan... That's right! We were just discussing right before the show... You can follow us on Twitter at @JChurchRadio, you can follow Richard Dolan @RichDolan. What's up with that Richard? Was Richard Dolan already taken, on Twitter?

Richard: No, I used to go by Rich, in earlier years. Before I went as Richard Dolan. I know now, I can't even think of any other name. But it's just what I am, I'm Richard Dolan. I did Rich... I think underscore Dolan at Twitter, and then I thought: how do you change your Twitter handle, without disrupting all of it right? I don't have to do that, some kind of... So, I have old friends, who call me Rich, I have friends I grew up with, to call me Richie. If you ever go out in New York - at least when I did -, every boy's name was either Joey, Bobby, Tony, Richie. If I had said: call me Richard, they would have been like: "Oh, you think you're better than us? What's wrong with you?"

Jimmy: Hey I get it, I get it.

Richard: But anyway, I went through different versions of a name, all through my 20's and 30's. And many my friends call me rich.

Jimmy: Yeah, I was always Jim, growing up, and of course James, when I was in trouble. And then, when I came out to LA... You know, I was going to be a guitar player, you know? I was going to be that guy, so I change my name to Jimmy, and everybody that I met in LA, it was so hard for me to say, right? So, what's your name? Jimmy Church. The new persona, right? I just changed clothes...

Richard: And that's it you are! You are Jimmy Church, nothing else! You can't be Jim Church, are you kidding me?

Jimmy: No, no, and when I... When I hear Jim Church, is somebody for my school, for sure!

Richard: No, exactly. I enjoy it. Like I wanted to walk away from that type of identification for a while, like my earlier name, that it's who I am. Those people know me for that, and that's good.

Jimmy: So, we were talking - before the break -, about you know, actually doing the work. I mean, if you're going to manifest... manifest it, it's great. But then roll up your sleeves, and get it done. Nobody's going to do it for you, right?

Richard: Exactly!

Jimmy: And in doing that, living up to that way of thinking, that mindset, we have launched... The GameChanger Network Richard, was always about getting our community... Who we thought as game changers, right? And that was, what we were going to build upon, and do it! And, we have gotten a few different groups together, and one of them is this next launch, that we have launched tonight. It's called Uniwiki! I've talked to you about this a couple of times, and introduced you to it, before the show. And you got it, out of the gate. It was really funny, when you and I were talking to... It's not going to be, like that other... And exactly!

Richard: There's a variety of little wiki sites. There's like miniature wiki sites, I mean there's obviously Wikipedia, but there's other kinds of wiki's, the one I was thinking it was a sceptical wiki site, that really goes out of its way, to just trash talking and stuff about the kinds of things that we do.

Jimmy: And this is about unifying - not only the community - but gathering all of our information, in a positive way. And getting it all centralized, and together, with the correct contributors. And not go negative! This is the positive side of it, and unifying all of the knowledge. Because the knowledge is out there, the community is out there. We need a central depository of all of this knowledge, and that's what Uniwiki is all about. And in a very positive sense, that is our manifesto! And now... It's a great thing to talk about, but it's another thing to deliver the package. Well, we have delivered it.

Richard: I'm looking at the page, I've got it right here in front of me. Uniwiki. And it's just started, so I don't think anyone need should expect, to find articles in here yet. But it's there!

Jimmy: The engine is built, the stuff that is going on...

Richard: It's kind of an open source project, so that people can go in, and...

Jimmy: You have to register, and get accepted, and...

Richard: Are you running this? Is this you, running it?

Jimmy: No... Well, yes actually, because it's a community. So yes, is the short answer. John Lund and his software team wrote the engine. The concept is a community concept. It's John's vision, he's... You know, obviously there needs to be somebody at the top of the software chain, to build this monster of a platform. But everything is done! It's done! So, when we are talking about unifying, and positivity, and taking steps forward, and doing it. Well, you have to actually do it, and implement it.

Richard: This is a really good idea! I'm going to say this. It's a hard thing to do. And I'm just looking ahead of this project, and I see how much work it will involve. But it will be easier, if you have a lot of other contributors. What... And actually, what you're proposing, is not radically different, then what Wikipedia does, or what the other wiki sites do. I mean they all have moderators. Wikipedia is notorious, for censoring out alternative information. Or they minimizing it, or dismissing it in one way, or another. I mean they're very agenda driven. So, they've got a very definite editorial stance. So, there's nothing wrong actually, with Uniwiki having an editorial policy as well. I think in fact, I've encouraged you, to do it! As far as having people registering, I assume am I right? And thinking this is from around the world?

Jimmy: That's right!

Richard: Got moderators, policing it?

Jimmy: You have to, because we want... That's right, and you know we wanted to be a positive thing. See, this is always...

Richard: Positive is a loaded word, so probably...

Jimmy: Positive is a loaded word.

Richard: What is positive means?

Jimmy: It means this: If you can't talk here, Richard, you can't talk anywhere. If you feel like you are being repressed, if you think you are being censored in any way... And you have ideas, or if you have something, that you want to contribute, you won't. Because the fear of ridicule, or attack, or anything like that. And that type of censorship, cannot be allowed in our community. It's just cannot! You know? It's like a barbershop, right? You go in, and you are able to sit down, and let it all hang out. And here, if we're going to unify this community, you have to feel comfortable. You have to be able to say, what it is that you've experienced, or that you want to explore, or if you have questions. You know, you don't want to feel like somebody is going to attack you, or do a character assassination.

Richard: I'm with you. The word unity has always rubbed me the wrong way. I'll just tell you. I'm not a believer in unity, never have been. I don't think that unity is what I strive for. I mean after all, I only get better, when people disagree with me, and they point out, where I make mistakes. I expect... I'm serious, and it's what I believe in. But this doesn't go against, what you're trying to do. But what I believe, that what we want to be about, as a community. We are a community, let's just... But I would say, for me it's not about unity - except in so far, as we can all recognize we're in this together -, but we're all going to have different ideas. I mean, it's impossible to expect thousands and millions of people, to have the same ideas about something as important, as the kinds of things that we like to talk about. It's not going to happen. So, I don't expect agreement. If by unity, you meaning agreement, then I would think, that's never going to happen. But if by unity we mean a sense of community, like what you're saying, where people aren't being ridiculed, for expressing an interest, in this and yes, absolutely we want to do that! And we do that by the way, by engaging in, when we have disagreements, as has been going on in ufology. Particularly for the last year, but even since forever. That we have those disagreements, by modelling proper behaviour. It's very important that we do this. That we engage in civil discourse, that we do not engage in character assassination. Analysing people's motivations is fair game, but if you do that, you got to have something that you're going to be working off of. I mean, we have to be evidence-based.

Jimmy: Well, which is always the goal. You know? It's always about the evidence, whether it's the court system, or any reporting, or any investigation. You know, that's always comes down to that. Do you remember Ufomind.com Do you remember that website?

Richard: I did, yes. From the early 90's

Jimmy: The early 90's. One of the most... It was the reason, to even have the internet back then. That was it!

Richard: This is exactly true! You realize, that UFO's were the first, non-techie subjects of the Internet?

Jimmy: That's right!

Richard: Like in the earliest internet of the 1980's was all like computer programming, and c-plus, and like who cares? But like the first actual subject, on those old bulletin boards from the 1980's. The first independent subject entered in January 1986. And it was... I think that was ParaNet. It was Jim Spicer, that's a guy who created it. And that started it. That was like the birth, that was 30-31 years ago.

Jimmy: The first thing I remember, when I get my first laptop, and I get home, and I plug it in, I'm signing on to some... I forget what I was signing on to... With a credit card, right? To sign on to the net. The very first... Ah, it was AOL, it was AOL 1.0. It was before Mozilla, before all of that stuff. So, I sign, and the first thing I searched... Wasn't porn! It was UFO pictures! It was the first thing, that I searched.

Richard: For me too, actually. Honestly, I didn't get graphic user interface, until late 90's. And I was like wow, this is amazing. And that back in 97' by the way, I got an AOL account too, like everyone in the United States got an AOL account that year, I think. Because they sell that all of those discs, remember?

Jimmy: I had 20 of those discs at any time! Just popped in the mail.

Richard: Funny, man. That was my first graphic Internet I think, and I immediately went for UFO data. UFO pictures, something like that.

Jimmy: Well, and so... UFO mind, that website was also a really cool, positive aspect of a depository of everything UFO. I don't know how that was maintained back then, because it was all linked, and that was manual labour. There wasn't any automation. And you know, website design and all of that. And that was a labour of love, and...

Richard: I have a lot of that printed out. I think, I did an amazing research on it, you're totally right. Back in the late 90's, when I was pulling down everything that existed on the web, and the internet on UFO's, I printed, like complete... I mean, what were then websites of really interesting UFO places to go. And I think, I may have UFO mind in a binder, on one of my shelves.

Jimmy: Man... I remember, I spent like - we'll move on -, but I spent probably six months... of every waking free moment, out of every day that I had, seven days a week! Of reading every link, everything. And so, at the end of six months, I get to the last link at UFO mind, right? The last one! I'm like: Do I want to do this? do I want this to end today? It's over, but that aspect of that... That's what Uniwiki.org needs to be. It needs to be that positive driving force, where everybody goes first, whatever it is. You know, they want to investigate what disclosure is? Well you're not going to get a true body of evidence of disclosure on Wikipedia, you know? You're not going to get it anywhere on the net. It's too... We need to get all...

Richard: That's a good idea, because there's a lot of enthusiastic, energetic smart people out there, who are looking for projects like this! And I think you really have the bill, and they've been locked out of Wikipedia, which that's all that Wikipedia does. They're so highly controlled. And in bed with the intelligence community as well, let's just state the obvious. But, what you can do, is provide an outlet for an enormous, enormous amount of public around the world! So, your job, and your moderators will be to police that, I assume. And make sure that it's the standard that you want.

Jimmy: It's going to be amazing! And the only way to initiate change, is to roll up the sleeves, that's it! And I'm glad you stated it like you did. All right, let's move on. Everybody, just go check out Uniwiki.org, over the next weeks, months, and years. It is going to be a real game-changer, and it's going to be awesome! Now... Okay, [[MUFON]] Symposium, all right? Okay, now I hope that I'm catching you a little bit off guard, but you know, that there are quite a number of people listening right now wondering, if we're going to go there. I will, Richard, I will go there.

Richard: We should, we're doing this. It's the obvious thing, hanging over everything in ufology these days.

Jimmy: So, let's start with the top, and then we'll work down. How do you think it went, versus the expectations?

Richard: A couple of different ways to put that. So, the attendance was very good. The attendance was good, because it had a tremendous amount of promotion of some... I will say, very sensationalistic stories, that were very unlike [[MUFON]] to do. [[MUFON]] - which of course, has always striven to promote what they call "scientific ufology" - in the past, would never bring on the guests. So, Corey Goode, obviously Andrew Basiago, William Tompkins, and researcher Michael Salla. I mean, it just wouldn't have happened in the past. Perhaps Michael, but certainly not the other three, and then to bring me on. And I guess this is where I become part of the story. I was asked, also to speak about the secret space program. This is an explicit request, that I was asked by Jan Harrison, back in - I think - January this year, when he asked me to speak there, and I said I've done a number of lectures on that theme, and I'm kind of done with it right now, I'm moving on to other things. And he really asked me insistently, and I said, I would do it, and I would try to do something original and unique. Which I did, for the most part. I did a lot of new information, but then it was only months later, that I realized, I learned... Tracy pointed this out, she said: do you realize you're going to be on a panel with these four individuals? A secret space panel. And I... I'll say to you, what I've said elsewhere. I felt a little bit, like I was had a bit, to be honest with you. I thought... what actually happened here? And I say this, because... it's not that I have any personal animus, against any of those people, I don't. I do not. I've known Michael for a number of years, I've...

Jimmy: Well, on top of that Richard, there's another elephant in the room here, that we need to address. You've gone back and forth with MUFON too, over the years, right? So, there's that part of it too.

Richard: One thing at the time here...

Jimmy: Right, right, but there's a few things in play. I want the audience to understand that. That it wasn't just Corey and Salla and Tompkins and Basiago, but this was the first time for you, to go back to MUFON for a long time.

Richard: Yes, in 6 years. Last time I was there is 2011. And you know, I always jokingly say - but I don't think so jokingly -, that I was unofficially banned from MUFON from 2011 to 2017.

Jimmy: Well, I tried to get you at 2015, but...

Richard: No, I mean, it was just not going to happen. I mean yeah, there is a contingent there even now. I know that there are people in there, they don't like me. And they're allowed not to like me. That's fine, that's your choice. But for six years, I was not invited. Previous to that, for ten years, I had spoken at five symposiums, so like every other year basically. I was a regular, and popular, I thought. In 2011, the whole thing came down to the fact, that I... In fact, I was there to do a secret space lecture, believe it or not. I was one of the first, that I ever gave. And I took the last 10 or 15 minutes of that, to talk about the need for MUFON to reform. That came out of the blue, to the leadership, and in 2011, this was a very big issue. There was a kind of a mini revolt, going on in MUFON. Led by the late Elaine Douglas. Later than I knew she's no longer around, and Chase Kloetzke was a little bit a part of the controversy, and James Clarkson, who just at least recently left MUFON again, was part of the controversy. And there's all of this stuff, about how MUFON was not transparent. That it was opaque at the top, and indeed, absolutely that was true. And there was a lot of discontent going on and MUFON. And they fired a bunch of state directors just recently, including Elaine Douglas. And a lot of those folks went to the MUFON symposium, it was sort of like an alternate contingent. And a number of them were people that I knew, and respected, including Elaine. And I decided, that I was going to speak about it, at the end of my lecture, and I did. And I said basically look, if you have an organization like MUFON, and it is clearly undemocratic, without anyone having any say over who's in the board, when it's obviously by you know... Who pays the most money, and they get on. And it was a big part of it. I said look, you can't keep these things... you can't keep people in the dark about this forever, and they will bolt, and eventually another organization will come up, and they will supress, and leave you in the dust. And then, the director was Clifford Clift, and I know from two different sources, that he turned purple, practically... And said, that I would never speak at another symposium ever again. And I didn't, until... But Jan's different, because Jan was always... I mean everyone always recognized, that Jan was the guy, who really could do some good things with MUFON. He was a guy, that everyone liked, he was a guy that was always knowledgeable, about the subjects.

Jimmy: Smart.

Richard: Absolutely.

Jimmy: Good-looking businessman, CEO, leader.

Richard: Yes, exactly. So, when he became ID: international director, everyone thought: this is great! And it's been a struggle for him... You should have him on, to do an interview with him. I think, that would be great. But he asked me to speak, in 2016 in Florida. And I know, that was that was mixed, by other people. And I'm not going to get into it, and you're not going to get me, to talk about it, but I know it happened. So then... for 2017, he asked me, and I said sure. I said yes, so it was kind of little bit of a homecoming. I've always had a certain fondness, I've got a lot of friends on MUFON, there are so many good people in that organization! They work hard, they are dedicated. You know, MUFON is so important to us, because it is due... It's the only organization, that is actually doing the most fundamentally important thing for UFO's! So many people get bored by it. But it's so necessary! And that is investigating sightings. We need that, because even now, in 2017 we absolutely need well investigated UFO sightings. Because if we don't have good investigations, all we've got, is just some guys story or some woman's story. What's called a raw report. And I got news for you: a raw report is not going to cut it. So, it's only a well investigated report, that will have a certain credibility, for the outside world. And if we want, something like disclosure, or anything of the sort, we need a database of solid cases! And that's what MUFON - in theory -, and sometimes in practice can give us. Is that good foundation, so I believe in MUFON. So, I was glad, to be able to come back there. I will say: MUFON always has had bad leadership, Up to Jan. I'm not including Jan here. but MUFON's leadership in my view, has always been poor, substandard. They had Walter Andrus for 30+ years, in the organization just basically spun its wheels. And then comes the internet, and it's still spun its wheels. You know, you have the most populous subject in the world on the internet - second to porn I suppose - UFO's! And MUFON's membership just stayed steady at 2000, year in year out. All through the 90's, houses possible. Well, because they didn't have a market themselves, they didn't have a reach out. And that continued through most of the 21st century, and Jan is now trying to change that. And I wish him success, in doing that successfully, and with integrity. But back to my return to MUFON: I go back this year, and I was happy to go back... And then I discovered, that I'm...

Jimmy: How did I find out? Did you hear...

Richard: My fiancée, she's the one who pays attention. You think that I pay attention? I’m so involved in all of the things that I'm doing. I totally forgot about MUFON.

Jimmy: So, it wasn't a phone call from Jan?

Richard: No, it was my fiancée. My fiancée. She realizes, that who's on this panel. And I thought: oh snap... Now, what do I do? And at that point, I called Jan, I found him. And I just said: you know, what is the deal here? I didn't realize this was all happening. And I said: do you realize, that you're bringing in people, whose credibility has been severely, persistently questioned by many, many, many people? Why are you doing this? And Jan's answer, which I didn't really like, and I told him, I didn't like it. But it's his... We're going to bring them in, and let people decide for themselves. And I thought, all right... And then he asked it, if I wanted to be pulled from the panel? And at that point, I said no. I'm staying on this panel. I want to be on this panel now. So, there's going to be me, and four individuals, with whom I have strong disagreements about certain aspects of what they have to say. Then I thought, I will go... I was actually thought about walking, I thought about not going. And once again, the sober yin to my raging yang Tracy, said that would be foolish. Don't do that.

Jimmy: We got to take a break right here. I remember we talked about this for... It was probably a two-hour conversation.

Richard: It's completely private.

Jimmy: Yeah it was completely private. And we talked through it, and there was... Walking from that, would have achieved absolutely nothing, right? There you go. Let's take a break right here, Richard. Man, it's getting hot in here, Richard it's warm on this side of the microphone. Let's see what happens on the other side. Our guest tonight, Richard Dolan, Richard *bleeping* Dolan! This is Fade to Black, on the GameChanger network, in KGRA, the Planet, we'll be right back!

Segment 3

Jimmy: All right, welcome back, Fade to Black. I'm your host Jimmy Church, follow me on Twitter at a @JChurchRadio. You can follow Rich Dolan. He's links are up there in Twitter. You can do that now. Email is [email protected]. Richard, talking about the MUFON symposium, I kind of want to set this up for the audience, that has never been there. Normally, in a normal scenario, I would say the correct word is stuffy and unfun. That's the atmosphere there.

Richard: I don't know if I would completely...

Jimmy: Well, but what I mean... I do mean that, they are all about the science, they're all... They just want the facts and...

Richard: I mean, I've done many MUFON symposium in the past, and I've actually... That can happen, it's easy to get caught in my new shed, that can happen. But no, I think that there's been some very excellent presentations over the years, at the MUFON symposiums.

Jimmy: Well I've tried to make people laugh there, and that's tough, you know?

Richard: Yeah, tough crowd.

Jimmy: Yeah, tough crowd, but for this presentation, this is the opposite, of what the attendees desire, right?

Richard: That's what I think, it was a success or what I think had it went do. So, I would actually like to answer that. I feel that, by doing what MUFON did - and I don't know all the people who were involved in this decision, I've got some ideas, but I don't know for sure -, bringing in, what is clearly very controversial claims. And I mean if someone in the UFO community has been like living under a rock, basically the claims are, that there were certain self-proclaimed whistle-blowers, who have stated that they have gone to Mars. One is Andrew Basiago, one is Corey Goode. William Tompkins doesn't claim that, he claimed that he designed kilometres long spaceships, galactic ships for the Navy. Describes, if I'm not mistaken by Michael Salla as unsolicited bids for the Navy. That's a whole other thing. So, think about what that means. You design, or you draw. He's wasn't an engineer, so let's get that straight. He was a designer, he's an illustrator. He did illustrated ships, in unsolicited, for the Navy. So, they didn't ask for these things, he just drew them, and gave them to the Navy. I don't even know what that means. Does that mean, that they built them? Seriously? I can tell you, that a lot of other real whistle-blowers, like Gary McKinnon... And I’ve spoken recently to Gary McKinnon, who don't put any stock in these stories either. So anyway, you know, MUFON brings these people in, of questioned credibility, and they got extra attendance out of it. But MUFON also... Is going to have to face the repercussions, of what they've done. You know, MUFON has a core mission, and that, like any organization, you have to respect your core mission. In MUFON's case, is to conduct the site... Study of UFO's in a responsible way, and as they say "for the betterment of humanity", but their core mission whether they say it or not, is scientific ufology, and always has been, always! And they also have a core constituency, and that is the hard-working investigator members, who are the backbone of that organization. And what MUFON did, in bringing these people in to speak, was really something that damaged their core mission, and their angered, and alienated their core constituency. So, in that sense, it was not a wise move. And they're going to be paying a price for this. Now, it's not a fatal blow. There's all kinds of people out there in the blogosphere, who like: "this is the end of ufology the end of MUFON" that's clearly not. People love to get histrionic over these things, and it's not appropriate either. But it is something, that I feel they should have been handled better. And it will hurt them, and MUFON needs... They've had a couple of public relations disasters, over the last few months. Let's not forget John Ventre, okay? Good God, that was a horrible disaster. And it wasn't handled the way that people really wanted it handled, frankly. Which is issue a Burn Notice against John Ventre essentially, and say he's not welcome in the organization anymore. And that really did not happen. So, there's all of these things, that were floating around. And yeah, I entered into this little cauldron. Where my whole take was, I have to speak responsibly, in a civil way, but responsibly. And that's what I tried to do.

Jimmy: Do you think, that there was a lot of anticipation out there, leading up... Because of all of the background static, that was running throughout the community? And then certainly through the constituency, that is there, that are paying to be there. That they were expecting a blowout, a debate, you know?

Richard: Absolutely, absolutely yes. I can tell you, I mean it's the moment of getting there, the entire weekend was...

Jimmy: "Go, get them Richard, go get them, Richard."

Richard: I mean, they really... There are members who wanted it to be like a cage match. It's a riot's throwing down...

Jimmy: Which is not cool by the way! I mean you...

Richard: I didn't want to do that, but on the other hand, I've have always felt an obligation, to represent the UFO field, and in the best way that I can. In a responsible way. And when I do feel, that non-credible claims are being promoted, right on the panel, where I'm sitting, then I have to speak up. I mean otherwise... because here's what happens: if I don't speak up, then that's forever, right? Because that panel right now is on YouTube, and it's there for the rest of all time. And every time, that I'm in a situation, where I'm forced to confront someone, like I have to think about this, because it's always going to be recorded. I mean there's many times in my life, when I would have been very happy, to weasel out of having a confrontation, because I didn't want to have the... I didn't want to fight! I didn't want to get into it. But I knew, that would not be the case here, I had to speak my mind - and by the way that panel is on YouTube -, I would encourage people, to listen to it. And really, it's essentially for individuals, and myself. I had the different opinion. And what I said...

Jimmy: Okay, we'll get to that. Did you guys hang out, before the panel? Not at all? I mean, there wasn't a way in?

Richard: Michael Salla, we've talked on a number of occasions. I think he and his wife, are very lovely people. So, I've met him socially. I did not talk with Andrew, before the panel. I did take a... This is funny actually, the bus the from the airport to the hotel. Tracy and I arrived in Las Vegas, I'm talking to my driver, and he says: yeah, I'm here at the baggage claim, with Andrew Basiago, I'm going to drive all of you together.

Jimmy: Oh man.

Richard: We just look at each other, we thought: Awkward...

Jimmy: What was that conversation like, on the way to the hotel?

Richard: It was actually very... It was fine. You know, the thing about Andrew, is - from my perspective, my dealings with them - he's an extremely likable human being. When you meet him, he's very intelligent, and he's nice! What am I going to say against him? I can't say anything personal against them. We were like, dancing around things for a while, we wouldn't want to talk about this. And finally, as we were about to walk into the hotel, I broke the ice, and I just said look: Okay, I'm not here to go after you, personally. I have no interest in doing that. And he said: I understand that, and he said: you should become more familiar, with my story. And I say: well, I'm familiar with your story, I'm familiar enough, with your story. I don't believe, that you went back to Gettysburg, back in 1863, and photographed, and there you are in the picture, just because you say that's you. That, I don't believe.

Jimmy: You said that to him?

Richard: I said, I don't believe that.

Jimmy: Wow, okay.

Richard: I don't know, if I mentioned about Barack Obama being with him to Mars. I don't believe that. I don't know if I said that to Andrew, but on the other hand, I mean... I said look, I would be willing to talk with you one-on-one, and I am, actually, I am. We haven't, since then, but I am fine. And we have each other's phone number, so I'm in his cell phone, he's in mine.

Jimmy: Okay, good.

Richard: So, we could talk. I'm not opposed to it, I don't think he's going to persuade me. He's had many opportunities through his lectures, and unfamiliar with them, and I just don't believe. Now it is impossible, that there's a program on Mars? I'm going to say, that is not impossible, alright? But what is... You know, the devil is in the details. And the thing is, you got to look at people's stories over the course of time, as they have told it. And how those stories have changed, and evolved. And you find inconsistencies, and you find oddities. And that is the case with Andy, and that is the case with Corey Goode as well, I would say. And in the case of William Tompkins, you know... I don't want to talk about against a man, who is 94 years old, so I don't really know what's up with him, but I don't believe, that he actually drew galactic quality... I mean he drew them, but I don't think it had anything more happen than that. Certainly not in the 1950's or 1960's. You know, there are many...

Jimmy: Well, what's difficult with William...

Richard: That I do believe, but I don't believe those three individuals.

Jimmy: What's difficult with William, is he's got the credentials on the paperwork, to back up his identity and he says who he is. You know, his military career...

Richard: That's true! Well, some of his military careers is identifiable.

Jimmy: Yes.

Richard: What is clear about him, is that he has a low level, in a low-level kind of designation during World War Two. He was a kid, he was in his late teens, so he would. And what has been argued, by Michael Salla... And Thompkins makes his claim, is that he had a covert element to his World War Two career. And that could be true. I recognize, that the argument and the evidence that is put forward for that, is not a bad argument.

Jimmy: No, it's pretty strong, actually.

Richard: Yeah, I think that's probably true, but the problem is, that that is irrelevant. It is utterly irrelevant, having anything to do with claims about a secret space program. So, it is entirely possible, that Thompkins had a covert job, and he claims, that it was a covert job. Now this is where we really are making a stretch here, that had to do with our agents, who are in Nazi Germany, ferreting out Nazi technology. Now that's a different, and a much more radical claim. And that is one, that neither Michael nor Bill Tompkins have been able to substantiate. And I doubt that they will be able to. But that Tompkins may have done some classified work, yes. In World War Two, I'm acknowledging, that that's probably the case. But then you go to the entire mini skirted aliens, and you go to the image of the woman, who has the founder of the Royal Society. I can't remember her name offhand, but Tompkins says, that she was the woman, or she was the identical splitting image of the woman, who was the Pleiadean in the 1950's, and I'm just calling BS on that. I don't believe, that that was the case. I didn't say that on the panel, I argue other things on the panel, but I didn't want to get into that whole thing.

Jimmy: How do you think the audience reception was? And I'm sure they were just fine with you, but with Corey and Salla...

Richard: There were supporters of Corey Goode and William Tompkins, at that panel, absolutely. In the audience, there were definitely, and Andrew. There were a number of individuals, who - by the very questions -, certainly seems that they were supporting.

Jimmy: They were there is stirring in the seats? Were there any uncomfortable moments?

Richard: I wouldn't... I actually wouldn't be the best person to tell you that, I mean when I'm on a panel... Especially that panel, I was very focused, on what was being said. That's what I wanted to say, and I really wasn't studying the audience.

Jimmy: So, no murmuring?

Richard: Don't think so. There's were an interesting statement at the end, by Jim Mann, who's friend of mine. He's the head of Phoenix MUFON. What is one of the best MUFON groups, in the country.

Jimmy: Absolutely.

Richard: And Jim got up there, and I wish... Well it's on YouTube, so people can listen to it, but I'm only in a paraphrase. But it was a very strong statement, against those individuals. And a very strong statement for responsible UFO research. So, people should check that out, at very end of the panel, on YouTube. And I do encourage people, to listen to it. I thought... It brought out the dichotomy, that's going on, in this field right now. And what I said - and I want to say this here, because I feel that this is fundamental -, and I really got strongly criticized just recently, by Michael Salla for saying it. I was surprised, that he decided to go there. But what I said... And what I'll repeat, is that... You know, I as a UFO researcher for example, when I am dealing with the outside world, people who don't know anything about UFO's, I recognize, that I have an obligation to present evidence, for those people to examine. And it is their choice, to accept or reject my evidence, but it's my job to present evidence, that other people can look at. And as I've done that, I feel that there's a great deal of documentary evidence attesting to the reality of this phenomenon. And to the cover-up, as well. So that's where I go. I don't demand people to trust me, because I've got this really good inside guy, who says this, this and this. I don't do that, because that's actually implicitly arrogant, and it implicitly puts you above the audience. Because you're basically saying: I am the receptacle of special knowledge here, you're not. So, you have to believe me, and... Yes, I'm very important, and I'm an ambassador to all of these people, and I mean... Corey Goode is not the only person, who says...

Jimmy: No, that's gone on for decades.

Richard: I mean that every time, anyone says that, I actually don't believe them, because it's certainly not true. And be recognized that what they're doing implicitly, is a power game over you. All right? So, it's really not good cricket, it's not fair. So, what I said anyway, was that as a researcher, I expect other people to demand evidence from me, that they can examine, and that's fair. And I said: your whistle-blowers on here, on the panel with me, have the same obligation, to provide evidence, that we can examine. In other words... Like most of it, we don't even know who you are, for real. Like we don't know your genuine backgrounds. I mean, other than Tompkins. Much less your stories, and by the way the stories are all... I mean look... What Corey has been saying... Every single claim he's made, other than Blue Avians, has been floating around in this community. All of it was there, long before. Including stuff that... You know ideas, that I originated. Like the idea of a breakaway civilization, and my goodness, even the idea of a secret space program, which I was talking about back in 2010-2011. And I'm not saying, I'm the only source for that, but these ideas were absolutely current, and out there. So, you know, if they're going to claim special providence, well they're going to have to do something better, then just say trust me. Which it fundamentally is really what these people are doing. They don't count as whistle-blowers, I said. Because I don't know who they are. I use the example of William Binney of the NSA. I know who William Binney is. The entire world knows who he is, his background as one of the senior NSA code makers and officers, is well known, and documented. The fact that he was arrested by the FBI, for being in a hero, is well documented. The fact, that he talked about how the NSA spies on the American public, long before the world knew about Snowden, is well-documented. He counts! He's a whistle-blower. Account Gary McKinnon, as a whistle-blower. Because I know who Gary McKinnon is. I know what he did, and I know that the United States government tried to imprison him, for over a decade.

Jimmy: Yeah, the two governments fought over him for sure.

Richard: So, he's a real guy. I cannot say the same about Andy or Corey, in particular. Other then I can't say, I don't know who they are, until they can tell me. Until we can talk to family members...

Jimmy: Right, right, right.

Richard: Other people, who can vouch for them. Then... No, and in fact, none of that is come out. Not even spouses, not even... You know, I'm trying to get up to speed on everything, that's happening here, and I know that Corey's wife has no recollection, of any explicit secret space program activity, that he's done. And she has no evidence, that she can provide. Other than what he tells her, so what do we really have here? I mean maybe it's true, maybe beyond all of that... All of my doubts, it's true. But what I would say, is that it doesn't even matter, if I believe, or if you believe. It really doesn't matter. What I say, is they've got to provide something, that we genuinely can examine.

Jimmy: Well, let me jump in, really quick. What if, Corey... He's going to be on the show tomorrow, right? If I brought Corey on tomorrow - not saying that I would -, but what if I got all of the bean spilled? Name of elementary school, junior high school, he's parents name, street addresses. Just the full-on list. The CV, in its completion. Does that change things?

Richard: Well I'd like to see a character analysis done right, so for one thing, what people - who've known him well -, would have to say about him. What kind of person is he really? I don't know, what kind of person. I've spoken with him, and he's very genial with me, and he's very... He was gracious, and I have no complaints about, how he spoke with me personally. But I don't really know, what kind of person he is. You know him better than I do, but I don't.

Jimmy: Well, I remember... And in your defence, I want everybody to understand something here. When Corey spoke here, in Los Angeles, after I introduced Corey, I walk off the stage, and I'm walking out of the room, and I bump into Richard Dolan, right? So, Richard is standing on the side, leaning against the wall, and you stopped me, and you said: I'm going to listen to everything, he has to say. We'll talk later. And I said okay, good. And I split. Well after that, you did come up to me outside, and you said let's talk. And I said okay let's do it, what did you think? And now... That was a private conversation, but what was interesting, was you flipped it back on to me, and you said: I want to know what you think, Church, right? I said, okay, and I said: I'm going to be honest with you Richard, we're dealing with one of three Corey's here. And I don't know, which one it is. We're dealing with somebody that is been to Mars, and is on the council, right? He's a delegate. Or he's somebody, that is lying for money, and as an opportunist, and this is a big hoax. Or see, the third Corey, that is out there, is that there's some kind of MkUltra mind control thing, where he believes, what he is saying is true, but these are some type of false memories, and it's something sinister. So, I don't know, and I've asked Corey those same three things, I presented that to him.

Richard: Well, you know, none of us know, but we don't have anything to work off, of so it's either people believe what they want to believe, they choose to trust him, or not.

Jimmy: And there you go, because he's Richard *bleeping* Dolan. I'm your host Jimmy Church, this is Fade to Black, we'll be right back!

Segment 4

Jimmy: Welcome back, Fade to Black. Our guest tonight is Richard Dolan, always the dynamic conversation with Sir Richard *bleeping* Dolan. Follow me on Twitter, at @JChurchRadio, email is [email protected], and you can follow Richard, at @RichDolan. I don't think there's an underscore Rich.

Richard: I keep forget.

Jimmy: Yeah, I don't know, I don't think there is, I don't want to mislead...

Richard: People can search me... Yeah, I've got a Twitter feed, I do Facebook, and there's my website.

Jimmy: Now, back to this...

Richard: Which is RichardDolanPress.com, just say that, okay go on.

Jimmy: And the links are over at JimmyChurchRadio.com, they know, how to find you.

Richard: Gotcha!

Jimmy: Okay, so as you sat through the panel, and listened to everybody's presentations. Maybe even got the feel of personalities, and feeling what was going on with... But you know, it's a pretty good crowd too, by the way, on MUFON, having 800 there. What's your position now? You know, I mean do you feel that, these are voices, that need to be heard, or you feel differently?

Richard: No, I think these are voices, that need to justify much better than they have, up till now. Just to buy their case. I just, I don't feel, that they've justify their case. Now... I want to just emphasize, that I have believed for many years, and I continue to believe, that there is a secret space program. So, you know, that's... And I've felt this for a long time, and I've gone by a combination of things, that I know, relating to the UFO phenomenon. Things that I know, relating to traditional historical, genuine insider statements about the moon, and about UFO's, accompanying our astronauts on the way to the Moon. Is quite a bit of that. What I know about anomalies, that have been recorded in Earth orbit, which there's quite a few very, very good ones, that are hard to explain the way, as conventional. I mean some are, but there's a number that are not. So, there's a strangeness happening in Earth orbit, and what I've said for years, that's going to be evidence, of the secret space program. No matter who's behind those anomalies. Even if we're not making those anomalies. We're going to be studying them covertly, and that would be a secret space program. But on top of that, there's a few other insider leaks, that I do credit. I credit the 1988 ARV story. This is the alien reproduction vehicle story, that comes from an aerospace aviation executive, named Branch Sorenson. That story... that whole account comes to Mark McCandlish, was an aviation illustrator. And a lot of people interviewed Brad Sorenson, like high-level very well plugged in individuals, who all came away, believing his story. And what he claimed, was that he went to an air show... A classified air show, and he saw three hovering objects, that were essentially flying saucers. Described as alien reproduction vehicles. This is a 1988! A four-star general was lecturing at a podium about them, and stated that they had travelled through the solar system by them. That's 1988, and that their energy source was the vacuum. This was a year before the first published paper, on zero-point energy. Sometimes known, as a vacuum. So, there's an interesting story, and I believe in that story. There's others. There's actually a very good case, to be made for a secret space program. But the difference for me, is that for me it's a hypothesis, and a probable scenario. So, I have not made a claim, that I've been part of it. Now in theory, you would think okay, if it exists, then at some point, there would be insiders. It would something to say about it, and that's a valid position. I just don't believe, that these individuals are those insiders.

Jimmy: The other aspect of all of this, is - I mean, for me -, is... Why do it? That's the question, that I've always had. Why do it? Why do it? Nobody's driving a Lamborghini here, I don't think.

Richard: Well, there are some people, who get off, on lying. I mean, you know, I had a friend, years ago. I talked about him, a number of times. Great guy! Had hundreds of cups of coffee with him. Brilliant, funny, good friend! Lied his ass off, and lied about things, pertaining to himself, all the time. And we didn't even... His friends, we didn't know about this, until after he died. He died tragically young. And I miss him, to this day. But he was... He loved to tell tall tales. It didn't make him a bad person, by the way. It just means, it was complicated people. So, I don't know, why people say the things, that they do sometimes. I can't get into everyone's head, but people do tell falsehoods. And, that's just what happens. So, when a researcher gets an account, from an individual... I mean, they can't simply just take it, that is true. And this is where I really... I'm going to respond publicly, to something Michael Salla wrote to me, about me. Below one of the YouTube interviews, that I gave recently, with Bill Ryan, who's the founder of Avalon. And I was very surprised frankly, that Michael decided to go where he did... Almost sounded that... He basically said, that I engage in clever sophistry, when I stated, that it's the obligation of these individuals, to provide evidence. He says, it's not the obligation of them. It is the obligation of researchers, to disprove them. And I say, that that's wrong. That's absolutely wrong, because if that's the obligation, then were right back, to the Salem witch trials. Where any accusation, that someone makes, is taken as true, and that's ridiculous. That's absurd. It's not my obligation to disprove your claim, it is your obligation to provide me with evidence, that I can examine.

Jimmy: Right, well I can't comment, on any of that. Because I haven't seen that video, or that interview, or I haven't been a project Avalon. I have no idea, what goes on in that forum, or any of the other stuff. I just don't... I don't want to get clouded, or get bogged down in it.

Richard: I'll just... And I'm not even responding personally, there were some personal remarks he made, that I was a bit surprised by. But, you know... My attitude is: we are very foolish, if we abandon an evidence-based approach, to this phenomenon. It's important to speculate. My goodness, I do it all the time. Some people think, that I do it too often. But I think, it's is very important, but we have to be factually based.

Jimmy: Sure, sure. So then, what do we do Richard? When we have things like... Whitley Strieber and communion. Or Travis Walton or Betty and Barney Hill. Or, or, or...

Richard: Every story has to be analysed individually, so...

Jimmy: But there's no evidence for anything...

Richard: In Travis's case, we've got something that's actually pretty good.

Jimmy: We have polygraph, yes, we have witnesses.

Richard: We have multiple witnesses. Yet Travis, and six guys, that he was with.

Jimmy: My thing is, this is my take, on anybody's story. Nobody came back, with a Pleiadean t-shirt, right? Okay, there's no evidence, you know? It's all... Whether it's a polygraph test, or eyewitness testimony, but there is no evidence. Otherwise, it would be case closed.

Richard: In the case of someone like Travis Walton, I believe his story.

Jimmy: I do too!

Richard: And the reason that I do, is for the some of the reasons that I just mentioned. The fact, that I personally have spent a great deal of face time with Travis. I've known him for years, and I once drove across the state of Pennsylvania alone with him, and we had a long conversation about life, and everything. And about his experience, and the other thing is, that his he has never wavered, not an instant. Not expanded, extrapolated. Absolutely rock solid. The Betty and Barney Hill case, I would put in a similar category. And the reasons would be, simply if one goes in, and investigates the nature of the case, I think you can see, how this whole thing came about, and why. It's probably very credible! At least, that they're telling the truth. Whitley Strieber is different. And I'm friends with Whitley, and I do believe Whitley, by the way. But he's in a different category, because the vast - not all -, but most of his experiences don't really have other witnesses. But...

Jimmy: And I'm not singling out...

Richard: ... who wrote about report on communion, years ago. Who actually investigated Whitley, thinking that he was hoaxing, and came away, after. And I read report on communion, by Ed Conroy. And he came away very strongly, convinced that Whitley was genuine.

Jimmy: Yeah, I do too, but... Let me let jump in though. I'm not singling out any of those three, I could... Any-any UFO experience, that has been put into book form, it can be presented with the same thing. I mean there is no evidence. Otherwise, it would be case closed, on everything.

Richard: May be say there's no proof. I mean, I think there's evidence, for the UFO reality, for sure! There's strong evidence. You know, I mean I go back again, to the military records. Those are not faked, those are real. They indicate something going on, that's not supposed to have been going on, and yet it was happening. Objects, that we're not supposed to exist, did exist. We're being chased by our best interceptors.

Jimmy: No doubt.

Richard: Tracked on radar, seen visually, the whole thing. It's all there! So, something important has been going on, and there, along with that, been sightings, and alleged encounters with non-human beings. That's a little different, but there's so many of such people. And you, and I, and many others have spoken with a lot of these people, in interviews. And I think, most of us would agree, that they are credible individuals. And they're not really... Most of these people, are not seeking attention anyway. Almost none of them. A very few. So, you know there's that. Not everybody... Not every whistle-blower has that same level of credibility, that they bring to the table. And when they're making themselves the story, that's one thing, to be wary of. When a person is making themselves more important, than the actual story - and that is the case, I would suggest with Corey, and with Andy, and in a sense with William Thompkins -, and I'm a bit suspicious, you know?

Jimmy: Yeah, all we can do, is move forward, you know? I have going back to, what I originally said in this show, which is: we absolutely have to listen to everybody. There's a little bit of something in everything. I mean... It blows my mind, how much info... You know better, then anybody. You host a radio show, you know what I do. I'm at the centre, of all of this information, coming at me, daily. Daily, daily! And most of it Richard, conflicts. Right, most of it conflicts. With the audience... The audience...

Richard: The thing about the UFO mystery, is that... It is so perplexing. Like when you think, you have an answer, then information comes from another direction, that just gives a wholly different perspective. We're even refutes, what you think you believed. There's a variety of different things going on here, and it is incredibly complex. It's one thing, that makes it so important. It's so clearly on the leading edge, of all these different areas of knowledge in our world. There's a powerful truth to this phenomenon. And we really need to understand it! Because I actually believe, it's the key, that's going to unlock us to the next phase of whatever it is we're supposed to be. Is understanding this phenomenon!

Jimmy: I tell you... I want to share this with everybody, I know we've told the story before, but let's lock this down. One night, this is a couple of years ago at Contact in the Desert. Richard is hanging out with the fadernouts, we're having a party. And night vision shows up, and prior the night vision showing up, Richard and I, and Mike Berra... Mike as being the bump on the log, that...

Richard: 2016.

Jimmy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were talking about: how cool would it be... And Richard says: You know, I'm a little jealous, that you saw this last night, Jimmy. It would be really cool, if we saw something. Well, a half hour later, the night vision arrives. And we walk out to the parking lot, and look up, and you and I - and of course the sceptics, right? The debunker Berra -, the three of us see this object in the sky, light up, in front of us. And we watch this thing, fly across the sky. We shared the night vision, and it was something, that truly was a UFO. I mean you cannot explain, what we saw.

Richard: It wasn't an aircraft, I would agree with you. And it wasn't so high up either, like a satellite. It was right there.

Jimmy: It was right there!

Richard: It was very interesting. And this is the thing: I've had a couple of other night-vision experiences, not many, but a few. And when you look at the night sky, with good night vision equipment, there's so much activity out there. If the night is clear, there's a tremendous amount of activity. You've just had no idea, until you look at. And not all of it is conventional. Some of these things are very bizarre, indeed.

Jimmy: And when we talk... I wanted to... The other aspect to all of this, for you... When you brought... And coin the term: breakaway civilization, and brought that forward, that's a pretty hard concept for people, to wrap their minds around too, as well. So, when you present something like that, which is as absolutely as intriguing as it can be, and also totally possible! How do you want people to accept, and try to absorb that kind of concept, in theory?

Richard: Yeah, I came up with that idea, I'd been reading - this isn't really like overly academic -, but I was reading the concise history, by Arnold Joseph Toynbee... One of the greatest historians, who ever lived! And he wrote this extended thing, called studying civilizations. And I happen to have a copy, of a brilliantly condensed version of that. So, it's like, I don't know... 700 pages, or whatever. And what Toynbee did, way back then, was he looked at all the different human civilizations, as he understood them, and defined them. And I... I mean you can agree, or not agree with him, but I thought it was a very interesting exercise, that he did, and it got me thinking about what is it, that constitutes an actual civilization. And I just kept thinking, well... You know, civilizations normally in the last 500 years - or all the various civilizations of the world -, have been sort of combining, and intermingling, but is it possible, that there could be a civilization, that exists in the classified world? That's actually breaking away, from all that? That has its own technology, that is its own cosmology, its own understanding of the universe, and has its own interactions with these other beings. Would that constitute a separate civilization? And I thought yeah, probably in a lot of ways, it would. Now, does that mean, that they're all living on Mars? And the kind of alternative tree setting? That doesn't have to, not at all! It could mean, that they come home for holidays, and have barbecues, or they're with their family, and relatives. It could mean, that they're living on Earth, because maybe Earth, is where the action is anyway. Maybe they have jobs, in underground facilities, that are totally off-limits. And people have no idea, what's going on. Does it mean, that they have advanced technology? Probably, but how advanced? That's the question, I don't know the answer to. You know, do they have advanced propulsion? Yes, I think that they do. Do they have time-travel capabilities? Well that's another question. I have not found any evidence to think, that there's been a breakthrough in that. But maybe, it's theoretically possible. So, let's just say, there's a breakaway civilization. Doesn't mean, that they're magical in every way, and this is where I've become a little distressed, by some of these claims.

Jimmy: Well, we have the X37B, right? If you want evidence, of a secret space program, hat is now public... Well there you, go right there. Now how far does it go beyond that? I don't know. Is it possible?

Richard: Right, we don't know. I think it does, go beyond that. And I do think, that we've actually been going off world. So, it's entirely possible, that there's a program - a covert program - dealing with the Moon and Mars. I think it's entirely possible. I'll tell you one story: years ago... Over a decade ago, I was just kind of still a new guy, in this field. And I was communicating, with one scientist, who I felt was kind of in the know. At least, he seemed like he was. And I remember, I was testing him out, and I wrote an email, and I intentionally belittled the claims about Mars. This is before Andy, Richard C. Hoagland stuff. And I wasn't actually belittling all of those claims, but I did it intentionally in this email. To this particular scientist. And he wrote back, and he said: I wouldn't be belittling with this stuff, if I were you. There's a lot of us, in the classified world, who were looking very carefully about Mars anomalies. And he didn't really want to say much more than that, but that got my attention. So, I'm of the opinion strongly, I would add! That this phenomenon, it's not only real, but it involves a clandestine infrastructure. And that infrastructure - in part - is in space. And they have no intention, of letting us in on this. They don't have insiders, who want to alert the public to this. I do not it. They have way too much to lose. Now, if there's a disclosure, of UFO reality, I do think, that a secret space program will be one of those messy, little realities, that's going to come out. We're going to have to deal with it. But I personally do not believe, that any of those people, who have any power on the inside, are ever willingly going to give us the answers. They do have way too much to lose.

Jimmy: What do we do with... You know, we have Corey, we have William, we have Salla... Basiago goes time-travel, he's kind of on the outside of those concepts. But then...

Richard: Well, Corey Goode said, that he went for 20 years to Mars, and then came back, and not only age-regressed, but time-regressed. I mean, how is that any different?

Jimmy: No, what I'm referring to, is whistle-blowers here. And contacts, on the inside. And now we have Tom DeLonge. And the same thing, where the celebrity aspect, and the ability to have an a... You know, a talent agency behind them, and Hollywood, and the music industry, and the pull in his audience. We have him, coming into this play too as well, and we have another trust factor, that is also. And it's tangible.

Richard: Well, it's different, with DeLonge, who's the lead singer of Blink-182. And there's other people, that can be spoken, like that we could interview. So, John Podesta, is someone who - in theory -, we can approach. DeLonge communicated with Podesta, about the UFO subject. DeLong communicated with William McCasland, who was the former commander of the Air Force Research Lab. DeLonge was in touch with General Michael Carey of US base command, and Robert Weiss, who was the head of Lockheed skunkworks. Those are real people, and in theory, we can approach them, and say: what's the story? Why are you connected with Tom DeLonge, and why are you apparently stating, that there's ET technology, that you guys are working on? Which is apparently, that's the story. Now, there's a spin with that story, by the way. The spin is that, the US military are the good guys, the aliens are kind of scary. They're protecting us, and the secrecy is served a very good purpose. We can question that. We certainly ought to question that. But at least in his case, he's got actual genuine individuals, that we can investigate, check into, question, interrogate.

Jimmy: Have you been in touch?

Richard: No, not with Tom DeLonge, no. We know each other... But I tried, getting in touch with him, a number of months ago, but I think he's busy. He's got a lot going on. I mean, I don't think he was blowing me off. I think he was just very busy.

Jimmy: Yeah, I'll talk to you later about that. Anyway... And Richard, man, thank you so much! And when is the bleeping book coming out?

Richard: Well, as long as I'm not being asked, to contribute to Wikipedia sites, and the like, and other projects... Which I'm always being asked to do. And it's hard. And right now, I'm doing a renovation of my house, how about that? So, I was hanging drywall today. But I have written several hundred pages of my false-flag book, and I would like to have it done this year. It may be a little later, but it won't be long. I want this book done, and working on it.

Jimmy: Anything else going on? Have you signed any new authors?

Richard: No, I was talking with Mike Clelland. Author of The Messengers, and he is going to be coming out with a sequel to that, really excellent, powerful book! I have to say, Clelland's book, The Messengers, is one of the best books in the UFO field in the 21st century! Absolutely!

Jimmy: Yeah, it's a great book!

Richard: It's a page-turner. And it's one of those few books, that you read, that really will cause you to question the very structure, of what you think reality is. And no matter how experienced one thinks, when is in this field, that that book is a unique one. So, he's coming out with a sequel to that, and I think that will be a couple of months. I will probably put out a little booklet, on UFO's in the media. I'm doing an analysis of mainstream media coverage, of the UFO phenomenon. Like 80-90 pages, I'm just going to put that out there, I think it'll be useful. But I'm still working on my False Flags book.

Jimmy: Thank you so much Richard, for doing everything that you do! You know this, and every chance that I get, I say... I say it often, both directly, and to the audience. Your voice, and the way, that you represent this community... You just make us proud, and don't screw it up, okay?

Richard: Thank you, I feel like the luckiest guy. Because I do what I love, and this field can make me crazy at times, it's a lot of stress at times, but honestly, I would not want to do anything else! I love what I do, the people that I've met along the way. It's the most fascinating journey, I could imagine, and I intend: never to leave it!

Jimmy: Thank you so much, my friend! Have a great safe rest of your evening!

Richard: Thank you Jimmy, it's been a pleasure!

Jimmy: Thank you! Richard *bleeping* Dolan, and that was the conversation, that I expected. Thank you so much, Richard. And I did not mean to ambush Richard, but the point is: he will always come on this show, and be open and frank, and tell it, like it is. And that's why we love Richard bleeping Dolan! This is Fade to Black on the GameChanger network, KGRA, the Planet!

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